Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

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Groily
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by Groily »

shaunstaples wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:45 am I thought the thread was a bit short only because there is about 3/4 of the nut doing anything, and had spotted the undercut on brass ring.
Hadn't thought about cone on slipring, was going to unsolder the one I thought it was and check resistance.
Everything looks good and has cleaned up lovely. The end float feels right, it's not tight and there's no detectable play when screwed up.

Will the soldered wire to earth in pic be return side of condenser and winding connection buried in resin?
Yup, 5 turns of decent thread should be enough normally. The taper does the real work, the thread and nut just make sure it stays stuck on! There are remedies in 'worst case' but you're not there. You might have quite a deep nut on there I'm thinking.

Not quite following your 'cone on the slipring' sentence - but the nose where the HT coil wire enters is part of it, and the whole plastic ring comes off the shaft when the bearing race and oil flinger outboard are removed. But if it's not damaged at all, and you are getting 4.8K ohms from the brass track of the ring to armature spindle, I wouldn't touch it. More risk in removing than in leaving in place.
The steel cone or taper and thread on the brass drive end doesn't detach - or very definitely shouldn't! When they work loose or become detached, that's serious work to fix - and sometimes can't be. Very horrible job to maintain alignment etc etc.

Can't see from the pic which side of the armature we're looking at - but the LIVE wire has two strands under the insulating sheath, the earth lead just one. The live wire is on the opposite 'side' and the other end, from the nose on the slipring as I said. The procedure for identifying, and pix of a typical 'snip' are here:
http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/cond ... k_snip.htm

When you've sussed out which wire is which, leave the earth side untouched, exactly as it is. That earths the HT and LT windings as well as the old condenser. But, with the live side of the condenser snipped, it's now out of circuit so that's why you can leave the earth alone. It will now just earth the windings to the armature, and the earth brush is what (primarily) makes the circuit back to the magneto body and the rest of the bike.
With a steel pinion like on our Twingles, the armature shaft is actually earthed anyway - badly and oilily - through the drive train - but not so on bikes with fibre drive pinions, like many Beesas and Trihards. You may also have a brush on the rear face of the contact breaker backplate - that's an auxiliary earth. Some do, some don't. Older machines with other sorts of magnetos had ONLY that earth, and Lucas continued to make contact breakers with the facility for a long time.

When you get your EasyCap, just remove the fixed cb point, withdraw the 'top-hat' insulator tube that engages with the brass block's underside and remove the insulating plate between it and the backplate - put the circuit board on instead with the top-hat jobbie shoved back through the board into its hole and screw the fixed point block back on. Job done.. The rear side of the circuit board is earthed, the upper side is live, along with the fixed point and the centre screw. The capacitor soldered on the board makes a bridge between the two sides via two tiny tinned holes on the outer end of the arm which you won't easily see (but can maybe from the rear side).

So you end up with:
low tension winding
cb points; and
condenser
all in parallel, which is what it's all about.

A bit of trigonometry would help on the actual BTDC depth needed with the dial gauge at an angle, if you could be bothered and knew what the plug'ole angle of entry was (60°ish?). I usually just use a rod held as vertically as possible, or, if feeling virtuous, a timing disc - but not easy to attach unless the primary side is off - and we don't want to go there too often with tin chaincases, even with new Club seals!
A degree or so either way won't make any serious difference anyway, and there are views as to what's 'best' these days with modern fuels, which contradict sometimes the book settings. More important, if you can, is to see that the points open on both sides when the pistons are at the same distance before TDC. It is tempting to check on the cylinder that fires when the points are in a place you can see easily . . . but you'd be surprised how often there is a noticeable difference if you check both. In moderate cases you can split the difference setting the timing, but in severe ones, other fettling is needed. 1°error on the mag = 2°on the crank . . .
shaunstaples
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by shaunstaples »

So the 2 loops with the soldered wires are the other end of the windings, and the loops will be connected to the earth screws on the brass ring?
I can see something faint on one of the pictures.
Condenser wire.JPG
On the trials bike head it had two plug holes one direct at the top and one at an angle (Blanked off) and my Dad always made me take tank off!!
Was thinking of doing a mini timing disc for end of points bolt, and halving it? clock gauge is good for showing/finding TDC then timing disc could be zero'd?

Yes the nut is a bit deep and well used
Thanks again Bill
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SPRIDDLER
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by SPRIDDLER »

I just put a coat hanger probe down the plug hole.
CIMG4398_zps5b2c3873 (240x180) (240x180) (240x180).jpg
CIMG4402 (480x360).jpg

All my bikes have had manual A/R so I have occasionally experimented by setting the timing with the h/bar control not quite at full advance so that I can twiddle with the timing on a test run. When I get the best setting I reset the timing accordingly with the h/bar control set at full advance since the strongest spark is with the control at the full advance position.
In fact and in spite of the various debates ('modern fuels' etc) I've always found mine have run best at or within a smidge of the standard 7/16" BTDC.

(To be perfectly honest, although I aim for and seem to achieve a specific setting BTDC I reckon that with wear on all the components involved, chain backlash etc. it probably ends up somewhere between 7/16" and 1/2" BTDC, but if it runs as it should then I'm happy).
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Groily
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by Groily »

shaunstaples wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:03 pm So the 2 loops with the soldered wires are the other end of the windings, and the loops will be connected to the earth screws on the brass ring?
I can see something faint on one of the pictures.


Same Q and A as before really Shaun. The condenser is a little block of summat, with 2 wires coming off, one each side. Those wires will have been connected individually to the 2 low tension wires that emerge from the coil. One of them will also go to earth, probably using one of the (now hidden) 5BA screws that were used to attach the original Lucas condenser - or possibly by direct soldering to the armature brass bit. The other is soldered to the double-strand LT live off the coil. One of the strands acts as a 'link wire' that emerges at the contact breaker centre screw 'nut' after traversing the length of the bobbin in a small groove. So by soldering the double strand to the condenser, the condenser is ALSO attached to the rear of the contact breaker and is the low tension power supply for the points. The attached schematic shows exactly what is going on.
I can't see from the pictures which side is which, but the orientation of the low tension wires relative to everything else on the armature is always the same, and as per previous discussion.

On the trials bike head it had two plug holes one direct at the top and one at an angle (Blanked off) and my Dad always made me take tank off!!
Was thinking of doing a mini timing disc for end of points bolt, and halving it? clock gauge is good for showing/finding TDC then timing disc could be zero'd?


Guess you could, but might make it hard to see precisely when they open, and the disc would have to be very small, making it harder to be accurate. Spriddler's way is quite good enough for most of us! One of the nice features of some of the old side valve bikes, like M20 BSAs, was the centrally positioned bolt in the head that you took out to stuff a rod down at 90° - but of course we always need help on side valve engines unless the timing pinions are clearly marked in some way, because the plug 'ole is so offset. Similar trickiness with, eg, 4 valve Rudges, where you simply can't get on the piston through the 'ole.
A very handy wheeze when setting the timing - to hold the mag EXACTLY where you want it, - is to replace the earth brush with a soft screw that will just hold the armature where you want it. Can be done with a nylon screw, or a brass one, or even with a bit of wooden peg shoved up the earth brush holder instead of the brush (as long as it isn't allowed to fall in!). It's how I often do the job, especially if the mag pinion isn't easy to locate first time on a tired taper.
Discs are best on the crank, to be honest, but a big one on a camshaft gear could be an option if it could be held on.
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shaunstaples
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by shaunstaples »

Thanks Bill, from the diagram I just cant see a wire shown for the HT coil to get to earth. Suppose I was hoping that both the ends of the windings were earthed on one of the wire loops and the other was the earth side of the condenser.

Would eventually like to end up with an easy way of viewing the timing whilst its running so an adjustment can be made that's effective for the wear?
As you say Bill not as accurate at points, but a good comparison of both cylinders / accounting for wear.

I had a T140 in 90's and really regret selling it, but it had a Boyer ignition and I hated it! Low - Mid Rpm always felt harsh and needed to be ridden hard (not my kind of riding). So picked up a set of points from a 650 and fitted them just setting points and timing static. To me it felt better already, but then I adjusted each cylinders timing with a timing light and was amazed how it transformed it, so much sweeter and way more power. I suppose the gains are made by both the best cylinder not having to carry the weaker one plus the improvement of the weaker one.

Thank you Neville, that's what I hope to do get it right for me and be able to replicate it easily

Brightspark have come up trumps, SWIMBO has just vetted my post and has granted permission for a garage day...
Groily
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by Groily »

The HT and LT earth is the same wire Shaun.

The HT winding is connected to the low tension winding inside the coil, so it's one long continuous thing which goes from heavy gauge LT or primary to human hair gauge HT or secondary. The human hair bit fattens up again for the spike that fits into the slipring, to get the HT safely out and about to the brushes and plugs.

So there is just the one earth wire which is connected to the condenser earth side. Coil + condenser combined earth is screwed (or soldered in some cases where condensers have been replaced) to the armature.
The live LT side is the other end of the primary winding, which feeds the points via the link wire after making a pit stop at the condenser to get it in parallel.

In the diagram, anything red is live, and green is earth. The red spike marked on the coil and the red strip on the slipring are the HT live bits, the rest is LT.

The primary winding is just a small AC generator basically, whizzing round in a permanent magnetic field and producing a modest voltage as coils turning in magnetic fields will insist on doing. This is then multiplied to HT levels by induction as the points open and break the primary circuit. The HT voltage being a function of the number of turns of primary versus secondary and of the primary voltage being generated at any given speed.

The condenser is there as a sort of shock absorber as the points open, to prevent arcing as the high voltage is induced. It has to be able to deal with surprisingly high low tension voltage spikes (miles more than the voltage being generated in that winding), which is why you'll see most condensers rated at hundreds of volts or more and why they need to be able to resist 'fast fusing' in the instant that the spark is produced. There are learned papers on this sort of stuff, none of which I can claim fully to understand, but it's Life the Universe and Everything in miniature. Electro-magnetism and electricity, huh? Who'd have it?

------------------------------

Right, off to shed to see if I can make any progress with my Norton's twin 'chopped Monobloc' carb set-up which resolutely refuses to behave consistently. Too many choices, too much conflicting counsel on the interweb and even from the 'experts', which I am't. If Norton twins were as accessible and nice to play with as 'our' highly desirable twins, I might love them a bit better . . . the thought that we can buy at least two half-decent Twingles for the price of one good Dominator SS is extremely galling!
shaunstaples
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by shaunstaples »

Groily wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:34 am The HT and LT earth is the same wire Shaun.
That makes more sense, I was picturing 2 separate windings, both common by their earth. Really sorry for the dumb questions.

Anyway progress sort of...

The only wire in the resin I could get near to, under bright light looked like it was twisted, so I talked myself into digging in the resin and managed to get to a small section I could cut in middle with a chance of soldering back together, tip soldered and insulated it with heatshrink but when built up with EasyCap no spark!
Checked EasyCap and everything looked ok so did a u turn and soldered wire back up.

Left EasyCap in and all ok no misfiring!



So it looks like back bearing and slipring need to come off to get to long screws for front to come off, then get the old condenser cut out, will probably send it in for that, but will sleep on it first.

Thanks again Bill and Neville
shaunstaples
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by shaunstaples »

Just found this which is a good example for me also
Winding schematic (1).jpg
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Groily
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by Groily »

A very useful diagram - and applies to pretty well any other magneto with the condenser and contact breaker at opposite ends of the armature.
The majority have their condenser at the points end and it's easier to see what's going on, but it takes more than a 'snip' to get the thing out of circuit.
As to quite what you snipped and then re-attached, not sure sure - you may have cut the earth, or, if it WAS the live, didn't adequately reattach the wire off the coil to the link wire. Reference to the orientation of the wires in the link I sent you before will confirm that for you: as I have said, the orientation of the low tension wires is always the same in relation to the rest of the armature.
In the rare event that the condenser had failed 'open circuit' then you'd be OK with it as it now is, but almost always the failure is a gradual deterioration and the live side should be addressed to get the defective one out of play. That said, I've heard in the past of folk who've just stuffed their new one on the points and it's worked - but no idea what did or didn't happen next! Obviously the arcing and misfiring has gone, though, which is good news.

Digging wires out of resin can be a real pain - sometimes a bit of heat helps to soften some sorts of gunge, but usually I have used a small very sharp & very fine chisel and very carefully chipped away at the resin until the wire is exposed and then snipped it - as near the condenser as possible. Then checked the wire off the coil is still soldered to the link wire or redone it if need be, insulated the exposed bit and 'job done'. 99.9% of times it can be done without damaging the wire, which is the key thing.
shaunstaples
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Re: Lucas K2F Magneto with oily earthing brush

Post by shaunstaples »

Groily wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:40 am In the rare event that the condenser had failed 'open circuit' then you'd be OK with it as it now is, but almost always the failure is a gradual deterioration and the live side should be addressed to get the defective one out of play. That said, I've heard in the past of folk who've just stuffed their new one on the points and it's worked - but no idea what did or didn't happen next! Obviously the arcing and misfiring has gone, though, which is good news.
Think it could only be the earth wire, looking at the diagram. If the wires are on opposite corners on the old condenser then that's probably why the others are out of sight deeper in the resin.
Suppose as the old condenser deteriorates to a short circuit it could be gradual and all that time would be still running but getting worse until one rainy day... really would kick myself for not getting another blister digging in the resin, even though I'm a bit of a fair weather biker these days!

Getting closer to having a test ride (Only if the sun shines though)

Thank You again
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