Lights, capacitors, action.

[Groily]

A.
i) If the lights come on . . .

Yup, this happens with or without the battery in the system so that's positive.

IT IS

ii)
iii)
iv) If the battery isn't being charged, then the juice isn't getting as far as or beyond the ammeter; isn't making it down to the battery; or if it IS getting there, the battery isn't earthed properly the other side.

If the battery wasn't earthed properly would I still be seeing good voltage when I have the meter in place of the battery?

YOU WOULD IF THE METER WERE MAKING A GOOD EARTH AND A GOOD CONNECTION TO THE BATTERY LIVE SIDE FEED WIRE FROM AMMETER

The only movement I've gotten from the ammeter recently has been moving to the '+' side when applying the rear brake . . .
Switching side/head lights on/off doesn't cause it to move, neither with engine shut off, at idle or while moving ie revs up.

INTERESTING. SAYS THE BRAKELIGHT LOAD IS REFLECTED AT THE AMMETER AND THAT THE DYN & REG ARE COMPENSATING FOR THE DRAIN. ANOTHER PART-POSITIVE. BUT SUGGESTS WIRING AT MAIN SWITCH/AMMETER IS WRONG


I found a photo on my phone from January that I'd taken of the bike stationary and the headlamp is on. Obviously from a photo I can't tell if the engine is off or idling but I can tell that as recently as that the battery was charged enough to run the headlamp. Battery was bought in September so I don' think it could have been running off the remains of an original charge at that point.

I'll check the battery earth but would I be getting the 7-8v on the meter if the earth was bad?

NOT ACROSS THE BATTERY, NO. BUT FROM LIVE WIRE TO EARTH, NO BATTERY, YES. BATTERY COULD WELL JUST BE FLAT - WINTER LAY-OFF, TESTS IN PAST, ETC

I'm thinking that it's maybe still the wiring with the ammeter and the headlamp switch so going to have to revisit that and check it all again.YUP!

[The Vandal]

Further down the rabbit hole today.

As far as I can tell everything is wired up correctly as per the wiring diagram you posted on page 5 Groilly.

During my investigations though I have broken it even more!

Now I'm not getting good voltage out of the battery leads and no lights or movement from the ammeter in any combination of engine off, idling, revving and battery in or out of the circuit.

I took the F & D wires from the dynamo, connected them together and into one side of the meter and connected the other side of the meter to earth and still getting good voltage there, 15v+.

I've noticed I'm getting continuity between the terminal in the horn switch and earth (and also between most of the lighting switch terminals and earth). As I understand it the function of the horn switch is that when you press the button you're making the circuit from the terminal to earth so having a constant earth is bad right?

Given that pre-regulator I'm getting good voltage out the dynamo still but with it connected through the reg I'm not getting good voltage then I think it's time to try a new reg?

[Groily]

Several things!

Your 15v at the dynamo is good. That works (still)!

The lack of anything anywhere else is a step back. Previously, you had lights with the engine running, with or without the battery, but no charge to battery. Your bulbs didn't blow with revs, so the regulator must have been doing something or they would have if they'd been given the full unregulated dynamo output.

Suggest you go back to the A wire from the regulator - the one that goes to the ammeter.
Disconnect it from ammeter or nearer the regulator if there's a connector.
Put meter (DC volts scale) between that wire (regulator side of it obviously) and a good earth with the engine running and see if you get anything.
You want your 7.5ish volts back, at revs.
If they won't come back, and if F and D are connected between dynamo and regulator in the correct sense, and if the regulator is earthed, then there is something wrong with the regulator, almost for sure, yes.
If your 7.5ish are present, then there is now another wiring error upstream.

On the horn . . . yes, typically the button makes an earth: there is a live wire to the horn, and then the earth wire goes from the horn via the press button. It beeps when you earth it out. The button isn't a switch that connects a live wire to earth - it just makes the complete circuit to earth.

On the switch terminals to earth point.
Let's take switch position 4 or 5 just as examples.
They feed the sidelights and speedo light.
If you put a meter on the resistance scale between the switch terminals that feed them and earth, you'll see a circuit because the bulbs are earthed through their holders. Any wire which goes without an interrupter such as the horn button to something that is itself earthed, will show you continuity. Bulb filaments don't have a lot of resistance.
What you seriously DON'T want and must NOT have is continuity to earth from switch position 3 - the permanently live feed wire that powers everything from the battery or, with engine running and cut-out closed, from the dynamo - as that would constitute a dead short and you might need a fire extinguisher.
If you have that situation, then don't hook the battery up or you'll fry the wiring big time. Nor should you run the engine without the battery because if there's any output on the A wire (that would arrive at position 3 after the dynamo cuts in via the ammeter per the diagram), it would be fed straight to earth.

I think you're getting there by stages, but these things can be like rubbing stomach and patting head at the same time, I know . . .

[The Vandal]

Ok I am getting continuity between terminal 3 and Earth.

All of the terminals that have a wire going to them are giving continuity to Earth.

What have I done?!

[The Vandal]

Out of curiosity I pulled all the wires going to or from the regulator so the F&D wires, the A wire, the earth, to see if that broke the continuity and it did not.

I'm guessing I just have to start disconnecting things and see what works.

Probably start at ammeter?

[Groily]

Hmmm.... Don't know, but something, as it wasn't like this before!

I am assuming that the switch is in the OFF position when checking the continuity of position 3 to earth? If it's in the L or H then there'd be continuity via the bulbs, or some of, as per discussion the other day about continuity from other positions of the switch.

Think I'd start again at battery negative.

See that it goes to one side of ammeter and check that off the same side (if it's hooked up that way as in the diagram) is the live wire to the Horn. (Ignore or disconnect the wire to the brakelight switch if that comes straight off battery Neg as well.)

You were playing with the horn . . . so maybe disconnect that completely and then see if there is still a short from 3 to earth?

If that's all OK and no change to the problem, then check that wire A from the regulator and that the wire that links the ammeter to switch 3 are both attached to the OTHER side of the ammeter. That latter wire supplies all power to the switch (it's effectively the battery negative terminal).

If that lot's OK too, then check there is no hard-wired link from switch 3 to any other switch terminal.
There shouldn't be - the switch internals connect the correct terminals to each other when lights are needed, in L and H as in first para above.
If there were a connection from 3 to 2, 4 or 5 all the time, then some or other lights would come on all the time when you hooked up the battery - and it would soon go flat. But at least that wouldn't be a dead short from battery negative to earth - it'd just be powering something when it shouldn't be.

All you can do is go over the ground again, checking against the wiring diagram as you go. It is not IMPOSSIBLE that something has gone wrong in the switch, but I think it is unlikely as it clearly worked before.

So:
BATTERY NEGATIVE (and maybe Horn live wire) one side of ammeter.
REGULATOR A and link wire to switch Terminal 3 on other side of ammeter.
No links (by wire) from switch 3 to other switch terminals.
Terminal 2 to dipswitch for headlamp, and 4 and 5 as per diagram for side tail & speedo.

This shouldn't be anything to do with the Dynamo (which we know works well) or the Regulator itself, whether it works or not, so I don't think they are part of this. It's a wiring error (or worst case a weird switch breakage) I'd say, but it's darn hard to tell from afar. The annoying thing is it would be literally a 5 minute job to diagnose (and probably to fix) if we lived next door to each other.

I look forward to the next instalment . . .

[The Vandal]

Doh, lighting switch was at L when I was getting continuity on everything. With it off there is no circuit from terminal 3 to earth (terminals 2&3 continuity when switch turned on, terminals 4&5 continuity always).

If I put the meter from the horn terminal in the handlebar switch to earth there’s no circuit with the lighting switch at OFF, turn the lighting switch to L or H though and I do get a circuit, that doesn’t seem right does it? There is a small crack in the insulation on the wire going to the horn terminal in the handlebar switch, could that be touching the handlebar and making a circuit?

[The Vandal]

Upon further inspection the insulation on every wire in the handlebar switch was nicked, looks like whoever wired it up has been a bit over zealous when cutting back the outer sheathing.

I’ve trimmed it back and redone it.

I’ve also redone the earthing in the battery box, the reg and battery were earthed to the box then I’d run another lead up to where the box mounts to the frame, I’m nose just earthing the battery and reg directly to that point.

Fired it up and getting good voltage at the battery leads once more. I do notice though that when I let the revs die down if there’s any lighting on it’ll pull the output at the battery leads right down to like 0.1 or 0.2v and then it doesn’t really want to go back up when I rev the engine again. I have to turn the lighting switch to off before I get a proper amount of voltage out the battery leads.

I get that that’s the reg switching the charging off so that the slowly revolving dynamo isn’t pulling power out the battery but it seems like it’s not then switching back again properly.

Edit: I guess its feasible that the regulator requires a bit of voltage coming from the battery in order to switch back to sending power to the battery? It seems to work alright with no lighting on though...

[Duncan]

Some early regulators would not kick-in if the battery is flat, one dodge was to disconnect the battery, start the engine then reconnect the battery. On reading through I believe that you said that your battery was a cyclon/Burlen type and was flat, if so I have never managed to recover one if these successfully.

[SPRIDDLER]

I haven't looked back through all 7 pages of this (intriguing) saga but which regulator do you have? Yours would seem to be working but some can be permanently damaged by having been connected with the wrong polarity, and with all your fiddling about and earlier experiments with a capacitor etc. that may have ocurred..........
I had an AO (Al Osborne) regulator that was very reluctant to wake up after the revs dropped around town with the lights on.