help me find these piston rings please

Helpful information and requests for assitance and advice
Wayne Cole
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:56 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by Wayne Cole »

SPRIDDLER wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:01 am
clive wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:14 am Best to use the correct circlip for the piston. The usual advice is to replace the circlip each time it is removed. Personally I have never bothered (and the damage to the barrel referred to above was not of my doing before you comment Spriddler!).
No Clive, sadly I can't.
A circlip came adrift on the ride back from the Cornwall Jampot rally. It did start to smoke a bit during the last 100 miles. The PO had used a round (wire) section circlip in my 350 instead of a correct stamped-out square section one. (The circlip's locating groove in the piston was square section).
I either had a new liner fitted or obtained a new cylinder. In either case I would have had to fit a new piston.

(Ah, I don't think Wayne will be able to see the photo).


P3 Scored cylinder.jpg
ooh that looks nasty, fingers crossed that is not the case with mine! when I get a chance away from my hyper two year old and the misses I will take it apart. I'll pay for membership as where I now live in sweden there are no mechanics willing to touch the bike! you guys are my only hope now. regards wayne.
Wayne Cole
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:56 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by Wayne Cole »

SPRIDDLER wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:01 am
clive wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:14 am Best to use the correct circlip for the piston. The usual advice is to replace the circlip each time it is removed. Personally I have never bothered (and the damage to the barrel referred to above was not of my doing before you comment Spriddler!).
No Clive, sadly I can't.
A circlip came adrift on the ride back from the Cornwall Jampot rally. It did start to smoke a bit during the last 100 miles. The PO had used a round (wire) section circlip in my 350 instead of a correct stamped-out square section one. (The circlip's locating groove in the piston was square section).
I either had a new liner fitted or obtained a new cylinder. In either case I would have had to fit a new piston.

(Ah, I don't think Wayne will be able to see the photo).


P3 Scored cylinder.jpg
don't think my reply worked? anyway I really hope that is not my issue, looks nasty! the bike rides fine, was riding fine when I got it then it just stopped idling and started to smoke more, I have bought a new complete carb ouch ££££. I after reading the manuals am capable of this work and you guys are my only hope as where I live in sweden now there are no mechanics! and those that are here will not touch it! regards wayne
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clive
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Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by clive »

Wayne as a guest your posts are moderated before they appear. There are only a small number of moderators and sometimes we have other things to do. The moderation stops after a while and they will then appear straight away. Also as a guest you will have access limited to 90 days and not have access to the full site, nor adverts until about 6 weeks after they first appear nor be able to buy spares from the spares scheme.
clive
if it ain't broke don't fix
SPRIDDLER
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Location: WEST SUSSEX UK

Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by SPRIDDLER »

Hi Wayne.
Below is a reply I posted yesterday and then deleted it an hour or so later as I was a bit concerned that I was waffling about stuff you probably already knew, which is always a risk when helping 'unknown' new members on the Forums.
However, since you have now said you are in Sweden and short of local help I'll take a chance by reposting it and apologise in advance if it is waffle to you. ;)

-------------------------------------

Welcome to the Forums, Wayne.

Is the engine a 1953 engine? If it is the engine number will be stamped into the crankcase on the drive side and begin 53/xxxxxxx. Over the years bikes can be subjected to many changes so it's important that the precise engine year is known.

I assume when you say you have the manuals that you mean you have all the AMC factory manuals. I.e. the Owners Manual, the Workshop Manual and the Spares List for 1953 which are available here under 'Books':

http://archives.jampot.dk/

In addition, you may not have found the detailed inspection and technical standards for your 1953 engine which are in a different section here:

http://archives.jampot.dk/book/Workshop ... ndards.pdf

Ref. 'getting too much oil' ..........agreed, worn/broken piston rings, bore wear and valve guides are likely culprits and I don't know how familiar you are with these engines but it may be simply because the inlet valve oil metering needle is open (i.e. unscrewed) more than say, one sixth of a turn.

One thing I did spot in a very brief glance at the Manualslib copy of the AMC document is that the data appears to be copied from a mixture of factory manual years. For example it shows the piston to bore clearance as 0.001" (one thousandth of an inch). This only applies to the early wire wound pistons which were discontinued and after nearly 70 years may not be the type fitted in your '53. If you have a rebore you will need to observe the piston maker's clearance figures for air cooled engines which is typically around 0.0045" for later replacement non wire-wound pistons.
At risk of boring you (Granny, eggs, so forth) ...... if you remove the barrel stuff the crankcase mouth beforehand with rag to prevent any bits of broken ring falling inside the crankcase or you'll probably have to do a complete engine strip-down to retrieve them

A minor point of which you may already be aware is that modern tyres require higher pressure than those shown in the original Owners Manual. Typical pressures used today are around 26/28psi front and 28/32psi rear for solo riding.

Use the Manualslib info cautiously as some of it is for a 1955 model and there are several differences between 1955 models and your 1953 model. Your 1953 would originally have had a different carb, magneto and a CP g/box which requires semi-fluid grease rather than the 1955 B52 g/box which uses SAE 50 oil.

You'll be able to find a lot more information as a subscribing member, plus the club magazine, access to club spares, rallies and much more. You'll also be able to use the technical search facility. (The website and forums are funded by and the help given is from subscribing members).
'There is a tide in the affairs of men
Which taken at the flood............'
Wayne Cole
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:56 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by Wayne Cole »

SPRIDDLER wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:56 pm Hi Wayne.
Below is a reply I posted yesterday and then deleted it an hour or so later as I was a bit concerned that I was waffling about stuff you probably already knew, which is always a risk when helping 'unknown' new members on the Forums.
However, since you have now said you are in Sweden and short of local help I'll take a chance by reposting it and apologise in advance if it is waffle to you. ;)

-------------------------------------

Welcome to the Forums, Wayne.

Is the engine a 1953 engine? If it is the engine number will be stamped into the crankcase on the drive side and begin 53/xxxxxxx. Over the years bikes can be subjected to many changes so it's important that the precise engine year is known.

I assume when you say you have the manuals that you mean you have all the AMC factory manuals. I.e. the Owners Manual, the Workshop Manual and the Spares List for 1953 which are available here under 'Books':

http://archives.jampot.dk/

In addition, you may not have found the detailed inspection and technical standards for your 1953 engine which are in a different section here:

http://archives.jampot.dk/book/Workshop ... ndards.pdf

Ref. 'getting too much oil' ..........agreed, worn/broken piston rings, bore wear and valve guides are likely culprits and I don't know how familiar you are with these engines but it may be simply because the inlet valve oil metering needle is open (i.e. unscrewed) more than say, one sixth of a turn.

One thing I did spot in a very brief glance at the Manualslib copy of the AMC document is that the data appears to be copied from a mixture of factory manual years. For example it shows the piston to bore clearance as 0.001" (one thousandth of an inch). This only applies to the early wire wound pistons which were discontinued and after nearly 70 years may not be the type fitted in your '53. If you have a rebore you will need to observe the piston maker's clearance figures for air cooled engines which is typically around 0.0045" for later replacement non wire-wound pistons.
At risk of boring you (Granny, eggs, so forth) ...... if you remove the barrel stuff the crankcase mouth beforehand with rag to prevent any bits of broken ring falling inside the crankcase or you'll probably have to do a complete engine strip-down to retrieve them

A minor point of which you may already be aware is that modern tyres require higher pressure than those shown in the original Owners Manual. Typical pressures used today are around 26/28psi front and 28/32psi rear for solo riding.

Use the Manualslib info cautiously as some of it is for a 1955 model and there are several differences between 1955 models and your 1953 model. Your 1953 would originally have had a different carb, magneto and a CP g/box which requires semi-fluid grease rather than the 1955 B52 g/box which uses SAE 50 oil.

You'll be able to find a lot more information as a subscribing member, plus the club magazine, access to club spares, rallies and much more. You'll also be able to use the technical search facility. (The website and forums are funded by and the help given is from subscribing members).
engine is stamped 1953 yes, oil feed screw can be screwed right in still smokey! a new problem arose recently where the bike would not idle for long, I have read multiple things on this forum about that, mag/carb/side stand e.t.c. I will eliminate that issue by the new carb I have ordered hopefully? strange thing is, when I got the bike it ticked over nicely and I could ride no problems at all, that was with a water bottle with petrol though! maybe got some tiny pieces of plastic in the carb eh? doesn't matter brand new complete unit on order, bolts were shredded on my carb anyway. having built guitars for a living and riding vintage scooters repairing scooters a lot, reading manuals over and over I do have a very clear picture on the work that needs to be done, I have feeler gauges whitworth spanners etc. soon as I get the time maybe even in a minute now the misses has the kid I will take it apart. I will become a member because it really is looking like I'm alone with this task now, I wanted to send the bike to uk get it restored and sent back again, you may say that's nuts! nah not to me this bike is fate no doubt about it, it's pure love. if anyone knows a company that can collect bike from my door in north of sweden take it to one of the restorers I'm looking into and then back again please let me know. this bike deserves to be restored, as far as I can tell it's all original! apart from pinstriping on tank, it's obviously been painted before but my paint job was a lot lot better. oh and may I say my job on primary case was actually brilliant, it doesn't leak a drop! it didn't even line up before it was a complete state. I'm an eccentric chap bear with me, too much rock n roll in my day. cheers to all for help. regards
Wayne Cole
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:56 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by Wayne Cole »

[/quote] p.s definitely seems like like waaay too much oil in crankcase, i can fill a whole ice-cream tub with it from drain screw at bottom, does that sound normal?

Edited by a moderator as the quotes were prolonging reading
Wayne Cole
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:56 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by Wayne Cole »

SPRIDDLER wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:56 pm Hi Wayne.
Below is a reply I posted yesterday and then deleted it an hour or so later as I was a bit concerned that I was waffling about stuff you probably already knew, which is always a risk when helping 'unknown' new members on the Forums.
However, since you have now said you are in Sweden and short of local help I'll take a chance by reposting it and apologise in advance if it is waffle to you. ;)

-------------------------------------

Welcome to the Forums, Wayne.

Is the engine a 1953 engine? If it is the engine number will be stamped into the crankcase on the drive side and begin 53/xxxxxxx. Over the years bikes can be subjected to many changes so it's important that the precise engine year is known.

I assume when you say you have the manuals that you mean you have all the AMC factory manuals. I.e. the Owners Manual, the Workshop Manual and the Spares List for 1953 which are available here under 'Books':

http://archives.jampot.dk/

In addition, you may not have found the detailed inspection and technical standards for your 1953 engine which are in a different section here:

http://archives.jampot.dk/book/Workshop ... ndards.pdf

Ref. 'getting too much oil' ..........agreed, worn/broken piston rings, bore wear and valve guides are likely culprits and I don't know how familiar you are with these engines but it may be simply because the inlet valve oil metering needle is open (i.e. unscrewed) more than say, one sixth of a turn.

One thing I did spot in a very brief glance at the Manualslib copy of the AMC document is that the data appears to be copied from a mixture of factory manual years. For example it shows the piston to bore clearance as 0.001" (one thousandth of an inch). This only applies to the early wire wound pistons which were discontinued and after nearly 70 years may not be the type fitted in your '53. If you have a rebore you will need to observe the piston maker's clearance figures for air cooled engines which is typically around 0.0045" for later replacement non wire-wound pistons.
At risk of boring you (Granny, eggs, so forth) ...... if you remove the barrel stuff the crankcase mouth beforehand with rag to prevent any bits of broken ring falling inside the crankcase or you'll probably have to do a complete engine strip-down to retrieve them

A minor point of which you may already be aware is that modern tyres require higher pressure than those shown in the original Owners Manual. Typical pressures used today are around 26/28psi front and 28/32psi rear for solo riding.

Use the Manualslib info cautiously as some of it is for a 1955 model and there are several differences between 1955 models and your 1953 model. Your 1953 would originally have had a different carb, magneto and a CP g/box which requires semi-fluid grease rather than the 1955 B52 g/box which uses SAE 50 oil.

You'll be able to find a lot more information as a subscribing member, plus the club magazine, access to club spares, rallies and much more. You'll also be able to use the technical search facility. (The website and forums are funded by and the help given is from subscribing members).
please watch video of my idle issue, smoking is one thing but this new thing? tweaked carb it's not happy anywhere. making the neighbor cough in the process haha I'm not touching throttle at any time here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbCeW44Ow-o
SPRIDDLER
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Posts: 8542
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:00 am
Location: WEST SUSSEX UK

Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by SPRIDDLER »

Thanks for the update. It seems you're pretty well kitted out and clued up to sort out the tasks :thumbup:
wayne brainache wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:31 pm p.s definitely seems like like waaay too much oil in crankcase, i can fill a whole ice-cream tub with it from drain screw at bottom, does that sound normal?
Hmm, that rather depends upon the size of your Swedish ice cream tubs. ;)

In the main 'too much' oil in the c/case can be the result of a worn bore or the rather common 'wet sumping' over time which it seems you have read about already (leakage from the oil tank past the oil pump plunger etc.). Presumably you've found the several/many previous posts on wet sumping by using the 'Search' facility on the forum. There'll always be some oil in there as there needs to be a certain amount before it reaches the level of the scavenge/return drilling in the c/case. I've not had the wet sumping issue to any noticeable degree and never measured the oil drained from my c/cases but at a guess and just from memory I'd say that no more than about 150cc after stopping the engine and leaving it for maybe a week may be about what I'd expect, but I may be wildly wrong. Some owners drain the c/case before starting the engine after a period of inactivity otherwise considerable smoke issues from the zorst pipe (like your 2-stroke scooters?) and/or the sparkling plug becomes fouled with oil.
It's also possible that oil will build up in the c/case due to the 'sucking' efficiency of the oil pump being weak due an air leak at the oil pump's rear end plate. The threads in the c/case for the four screws securing that end plate are easily stripped so avoid trying to cure an air leak by over-tightening them.

Lots of previous discussions on the Forums so I won't repeat all of it.
'There is a tide in the affairs of men
Which taken at the flood............'
Wayne Cole
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:56 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: help me find these piston rings please

Post by Wayne Cole »

SPRIDDLER wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:47 pm
wayne brainache wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:31 pm p.s definitely seems like like waaay too much oil in crankcase, i can fill a whole ice-cream tub with it from drain screw at bottom, does that sound normal?
Hmm, that rather depends upon the size of your Swedish ice cream tubs. ;)

In the main 'too much' oil in the c/case can be the result of a worn bore or the rather common 'wet sumping' over time which it seems you have read about already (leakage from the oil tank past the oil pump plunger etc.). Presumably you've found the several/many previous posts on wet sumping by using the 'Search' facility on the forum. There'll always be some oil in there as there needs to be a certain amount before it reaches the level of the scavenge/return drilling in the c/case. I've not had the wet sumping issue to any noticeable degree and never measured the oil drained from my c/cases but at a guess and just from memory I'd say that more than about 150cc after stopping the engine and leaving it for maybe a week may be about what I'd expect, but I may be wildly wrong. Some owners drain the c/case before starting the engine after a period of inactivity otherwise considerable smoke issues from the zorst pipe and/or the sparkling plug becomes fouled with oil.
It's also possible that oil will build up in the c/case due to the 'sucking' efficiency of the oil pump being weak due an air leak at the oil pump's rear end plate. The threads in the c/case for the four screws securing that end plate are easily stripped so avoid trying to cure an air leak by over-tightening them.

Lots of previous discussions on the Forums so I won't repeat all of it.
p.p.s you wont be poking Swedish badgers with spoons, they are bloody massive and vicious!
Last edited by Wayne Cole on Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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